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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 20, 2009 23:09:15 GMT -5
This was interesting. It was one of the longest unsolicited speeches Kirk had heard Spock make, aside from the content itself, which was, Kirk thought, somewhat revealing. In fact, he was thinking about words he himself had used, in order to anger Spock during the incident with the pollen. He'd had good reason, and his ploy had worked. But like the "half-breed" incident, it was something he turned over in his mind from time to time. It was one thing when he and/or McCoy teased Spock, because Spock, in his way, teased back. Kirk knew that Spock would inform him if their fun was... impairing his function, or something to that effect. But now he was reflecting on where Spock might have heard the term before. He was jumping to conclusions, of course, but Kirk usually landed on his feet.
"I believe that is a common trait, Mr. Spock, among people who lack the self-knowledge or self-confidence to treat others in the manner they deserve," he said. "It's the same impulse that leads bullies to torment those they perceive as less fortunate, but who mirror their own insecurities." Kirk had had his share of those, as well. "It's true that both terms carry multiple connotations, at least as far as English-speaking Earth culture go."
He wondered, as he had seldom wondered more than idly, if he had really hurt Spock with those names. He'd had to--his ploy wouldn't have worked if he'd held back. But somehow this younger, slightly more raw Spock gave him some notion of the boy he must have been. Aside from when he made his struggle known, Spock was the steadiest of his officers and friends, leading to very little speculation about the day-to-day nature of the duality of his nature. As was good and natural. But now Kirk as contemplating his friend's past, and wishing he'd pried more. Not that Spock would have appreciated it, he reminded himself.
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Jun 20, 2009 23:18:19 GMT -5
"It is illogical," Spock said. "If a Vulcan lacked self knowledge in an area, and encountered another whose qualities mirrored his own in said area, he would use that other to learn more about himself.
"'Elf', however, has another meaning. What of 'fairy'?"
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 20, 2009 23:22:42 GMT -5
"Of course it's illogical," Kirk agreed. "But I'm afraid a lot of what's natural is." He watched Spock a moment as they walked. "What's your understanding of the word?"
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Jun 20, 2009 23:42:15 GMT -5
"Logic is natural also," Spock pointed out.
He blinked at the captain's next comment. Kirk must know the derogatory meaning of the word. Therefore he was interested in what Spock had concluded from the little Kirk had said regarding the other meaning, or he was interested in Spock's particular interpretation of the derogatory meaning.
Spock raised his brow, a slight shrug. His voice, as usual, lacked inflection. "The way you used the term seemed to denote a fantastic being closely connected with its environment. The derogatory term as I understand it refers to a male who either prefers other males as sexual partners, or has latent homoerotic tendencies. It can also refer to a male who possesses traits, interests, or a physicality which some males define as distinctly feminine. If I understand correctly, the term itself is meant to suggest that these preferences or tendencies are in some way objectionable or socially unacceptable, for reasons which are unclear to me."
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 20, 2009 23:55:46 GMT -5
((My future is more progressive than yours. I wasn't sure what Spock might have heard.))
"Ah," Kirk said, wondering where exactly Spock had gotten this education. Probably in contact with some rather backwards cadets at the Academy--he couldn't imagine this being an issue or a subject for study on Vulcan. In fact, he had often wondered what "logical" sexual relations were on a planet with pon farr and arranged marriages.
"They're unclear to me too, Spock, and personally I find the expression of that objection socially unacceptable. But I wasn't sure what you might have been exposed to, when it comes to that sort of ugliness. Originally, fairies were fictional beings, usually small and usually winged. They figured largely in stories about magic, adventure, and were often mischievous. They could curse or bestow gifts to humans, and were often depicted in settings and clothing that mimicked the natural world. Like many of our stories, I think they were meant not only to entertain, but to reassure humans about the things they didn't know about the world. To explain the sometimes capricious turns life takes, as well as offer escape and wish-fulfillment. The stories themselves were illogical, I suppose, but they had a purpose."
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Jun 21, 2009 4:06:32 GMT -5
((Again, I think our futures are probably about the same, but that Kirk would have a rather rosier view of progress than someone who parses every single detail. ...I suppose I just can't envision a future where the random ass/next massacring fascist dictator doesn't make off-hand derogatory comments about people's race/orientation/species/skin-color/weight/fingernail polish.
Anywho, I should have had the following narration bit earlier, when Kirk was surprised at the length of Spock's little homophobia speech. I find the narration bits hard to do, as I've mentioned. I sometimes forget there's not a lot of other ways to reveal my intent. Or that it might be important to reveal my intent. Anywho. Sorry so long.))
Spock had watched humans insult each other and be insulted with peculiar interest. He had, of course, occasionally suffered what was intended to be insult from humans. He understood 'elf' was meant to be demeaning.
But Spock had had a lot of experience with terms and comments he found actually demeaning. As a child, other children had been fascinated by his human heritage. They had wondered whether he was capable of suppressing his emotions with logic, or whether his humanity would prevent him. They had attempted to elicit emotional reactions from him. This had continued even into his adult years, as he studied and applied for the Vulcan Science Academy.
The Vulcans' attacks were never meant to be malicious. There was no emotion behind their curiosity or these attempts to make him emote. To them, Spock was an experiment. A point of interest. In fact, it was not until they realized that being an experiment to them hurt him that they attempted to elicit emotional reactions; Spock had merely by his reaction to their interest in his peculiarity given them a means of further analysis. Initially they had not meant to insult him. Vulcans didn't do that, because Vulcans didn't get insulted.
Humans did. Furthermore their reasons for insulting each other were nothing like the technical 'experiments' other Vulcans had conducted on Spock. Spock had come to realize over time that usually when humans insulted each other, they did it because they felt an inadequacy in themselves--which the Vulcans who had managed to insult Spock never could have felt. Perhaps it was for this reason that human insults had rarely, if ever, produced any particular emotion other than mild curiosity in Spock.
Except for that one time with the other Kirk on the bridge.
That was why Spock had been particularly interested in this Kirk's insights regarding what Spock had observed of human interactions in these particular situations. Spock knew of course that the other Kirk had attempted to insult him as an expedient--far more like Vulcan behavior than what Spock had observed as human. In fact that action had given Spock to admire the other Kirk, since that Kirk had risked his own life to perform an action necessary, logical, and beneficial to all.
But Spock was interested in this Kirk's views. This Kirk hardly seemed as though he felt he had any inadequacy. Spock wondered what he thought of others who did. He wondered if this Kirk could do what the other had done, for the good of the ship, Earth, and the Federation.
"I have seen many sorts of ugliness," Spock assured him.
He listened to Kirk's explanation of fairies with interest. "The fiction about the elves seems to have an opposite purpose. From what you describe, Tolkien's story seems to be a cautionary tale for humans, rather than a reassuring one."
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 21, 2009 13:35:02 GMT -5
((No, I think you're right. And I think part of Kirk's power is his ability to see and be the world he wants.
And don't worry about it. I do like hearing your thought process and stuff, even if it's not something I can materially use for Kirk, but it does aid comprehension/direction. Also these here were very interesting to me.))
Kirk, had he known Spock's history, would not quite have understood it. Logically, of course, he'd have seen what Spock was getting at with the other Vulcan boys' behavior, but it would have fallen into the same reprehensible category for him as any playground bigot bully. The rationale may have been comprehensible, but materially it wouldn't have altered how Kirk felt about it.
"No doubt you have," Kirk said, feeling a little bad suddenly about bringing it up, knowing what he knew. "And you're correct. Each culture tends to bring the previous times' tropes forward, to address, at a removed distance, the issues affecting that culture. I think Tolkien was addressing the people of his day by using familiar, almost quaint concepts in a new way. Much as old science fiction addressed the current culture by means of positing an imagined future."
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Jun 21, 2009 16:18:43 GMT -5
"That would be valuable, for those who have difficulty fully understanding the logical conclusion of present circumstances, due to either complexity or emotional obstruction."
Vulcan had poetry, but it was an exercise in form and meter, rather than sentiment. Spock found the exercises pleasing to read or hear, though he had never become adept at creating them. He saw no reason to relate this information, however.
"It is interesting that Tolkien's work was cautionary for humans, and that it appears to be humans who have caused problems in this real-world elvish society, but in a different way than Tolkien described." Spock paused, and added, "Why does Figwit think he is destined to lead his people?"
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 21, 2009 17:03:38 GMT -5
Kirk thought so too, but it was a little odd hearing it from Spock. Then again, Spock enjoyed music, on a level he would probably define as aesthetic in a purely mathematical sense. A lot of what Spock thought was and was not logical seemed, to Kirk, to be a matter of semantics. Of point of view. Vulcans had their art, after all.
"That's what troubles me," Kirk said. "He seems to have been told so; born and raised with that express purpose in mind with no say in the matter. Chosen by the dying queen to overthrow the corrupt rule that she knew would follow. That said, he seems to believe in his cause. He's very... stoic. It's hard to tell. But I get the sense that he despairs at the futility of his goal, rather than its imposed nature."
Kirk looked up. The gas lamps were being lit--Paris was, actually, being converted to electricity, but slowly--and the dusk was deepening. "We won't make it tonight," he said.
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Jun 21, 2009 22:33:05 GMT -5
"I have never understood the idea of destiny," Spock said. "It seems highly illogical. However, as we theorized earlier, it is not completely improbably that universes tend toward a particular structure."
Spock watched the lamp lighters with interest. It all seemed terribly inefficient. "Then we must begin monitoring the environs for a suitable stopping point."
((Were we really going to the Bates Motel? I'm up for it if you are; if you just wanna make up an inn or something that's fine too; the Bates might be comfortably seedy, but I understand if you don't want to run into other plots; of course Kirk has only enough money for one room, tell me please that's the case.))
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 21, 2009 23:57:09 GMT -5
((Of course it's the case. And the Bates can be whatever we want--it can be convenient or it can intersect other plots, it really doesn't matter and can be up to us. But if we're just looking for someplace neutral, it might as well amuse me to have a vivid mental picture of it.))
"Agreed, Mr. Spock," Kirk said, already looking. The city buildings were thinning somewhat, but they still weren't in the country, and Kirk doubted it would be as easy to find lodgings much further out. "I'm afraid it will have to be pretty spartan, considering the state of my funds. As to destiny, I'm not a believer. But that belief can be very powerful to those who are. And if belief is shored up by circumstantial evidence, it can be very difficult to dispel."
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Jun 22, 2009 0:11:55 GMT -5
"Yes," Spock agreed, "for beings who are not logical."
Spock noticed the city thinning, too. "It is more likely we will find lodgings in the more densely populated areas. Or do you wish to make more distance before we stop? I can go on for some time more, but I do not require the rest that you do. It is possible, too, that accommodations in the more sparsely populated areas will prove cheaper."
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 22, 2009 0:22:22 GMT -5
Kirk was used to Spock citing the value of logic every chance he got. It rolled off his back, for the most part. And it was possible that Figwit was being very illogical, but Kirk saw value in his devotion to his ideals, however impossible they might seem to be to achieve. Figwit was one of the steadier beings he'd ever met; the fact that he had not yet made a move to take over Lorien, but yet held out hope, meant that he was both logical about his chances and an optimist.
But what raised his eyebrows was the slight about his stamina. He didn't look angry. In fact, his expression contained a sort of cocky amusement. "I can go on for awhile yet," he assured Spock. "We humans can be fairly stubborn, if illogical. But I don't see the need to, as yet; the more sparsely populated areas will be less used to strangers, and I believe this is the sort of area where people require cheap inns. Look, there's one now."
It sat, slightly isolated and looking somewhat out of place. A low building, with doors lining the front of it and an office lit up. Kirk thought "Bates" was a strange name for a French inn.
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Jun 22, 2009 9:53:51 GMT -5
Spock was well aware of the human capacity for irrationality--that which they called stubbornness--but he was a little surprised to hear it from the captain. Maybe he had hurt his pride.
Spock didn't bother pointing out that biologically, Vulcans needed far less sleep than humans.
"This is fortuitous," he said instead. "Let's proceed in that direction."
((Do we go to another thread? And we can comment on all the anachronisms, right?))
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 22, 2009 10:03:50 GMT -5
Bates Motel((We can, I think. Also now I'm seeing Kirk getting into various pissing contests over human vs. Vulcan physiognomy. Er, figuratively. "No I'm not asleep! I'm resting my eyes! I can stay awake as long as you can, damn you!" Somehow he is both practical and believes himself unstoppable.))
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