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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 18, 2009 15:03:46 GMT -5
Spock's motion was eminently logical, and Kirk nodded, acknowledging his win. He was gratified, though not surprised, by Spock's interest; in a way, he'd been through this before, while Spock, hadn't, which was interesting all by itself.
"So you're suggesting that, if the older Spock you know is the same as mine, he and Nero have essentially rendered me... impossible. And yet here I am." He gave a little shrug with his smile, as if mock-apologizing for his inconvenient existence.
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Jun 18, 2009 18:11:07 GMT -5
((If you wanna take the conversation elsewhere, go right ahead. I think Spock would be preoccupied by the metaphysical, considering his situation. I like metaphysics well enough, but Trek metaphysics are less interesting since, you know, they didn't actually think them out. So Kirk can go where he wants with this.))
"No. Since you are younger than my elder counterpart, you have come here before he and Nero negated your existence. The mechanism which sent you here may be protecting your continued existence. However, return may prove difficult."
Spock looked down at the chess board, the tipped king. "But you have mentioned entering alternate universes, and a universe which mirrored ours, but was twisted. I admit to a curiosity regarding your experiences there."
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 18, 2009 19:18:19 GMT -5
((Yeah. It's not thought-out or consistent at all, so it's hard to judge from prior situations.))
Kirk wasn't sure how that worked, because it would seem to require that there was some concrete timeline that was deviated from after he came here, and that just didn't seem to add up, to him. Would time have changed from the moment Nero and Spock went backwards? Was there some universal constant of time that meant that because it hadn't happened yet at the point he'd entered this... whatever this was... that their going back into his own past had happened after he'd already gotten here?
Well, it was just a hypothesis, and one they couldn't test as it was.
"That is, of course, assuming that your universe is the only one," he said. "Though it sounds better than the one I mentioned. Somehow, the Federation was an empire, bloodthirsty and brutal. Four of us were transported into it, and our counterparts transported to our own world. They were discovered right away, and locked up. But we managed to pass--for a time. What might interest you was that everything seemed remarkably the same--the same acid burns on Bones' table, for instance--and yet we couldn't pinpoint the deviation from our own timeline. Why should we all be exactly the same, in the same relationships to one another, when something so drastic had happened far enough back to lead to an entirely different civilization?" He looked at the king, following Spock's gaze. "I suppose... it's a little like the way we all ended up on the Enterprise, in our respective worlds, despite the drastic differences in how we got there. It's enough to make one rethink rejecting fate."
He didn't sound as though he was quite ready to do that, but it did seem worth thinking about.
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Jun 18, 2009 19:47:17 GMT -5
"That is the assumption under which I am currently operating," Spock agreed. "We had theorized that there were multiple universes, such that if one changed the past one created an alternate future, instead of affecting a concrete timeline. But the changes made via the Guardian changed your own timeline, leading me to propose a single universe.
"It does not seem a valid conjecture, considering your experience with the universe containing an Imperial Federation." Spock considered what Jim had said about that universe for a moment. "You say we were all the same in relation to one another. Was it merely the status and mission of the Federation that was altered, or did it seem our characters were changed? I am having difficulty positing myself as a willing participant of a bloodthirsty empire, even had I been born to such a universe, unless I was born fundamentally altered."
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 18, 2009 22:39:29 GMT -5
Kirk, strangely perhaps, smiled slightly at the memory of the other Spock. "No, Mr. Spock, I believe the entire universe was fundamentally altered. You were altered... rather less than the others we or our crew encountered. That Spock operated with utmost logic at all times, as you do. But the logic of that world was somewhat different. I suppose I'll never know, but I did try to convince him of the futility of the Empire's ultimate goals. If anyone could alter the course of that universe, it would be him. I found I could rely upon him... nearly as surely as I can on any Spock. From what I hear, my counterpart was not so flattering a portrait."
He paused.
"There was one truly important difference," he continued, eying Spock speculatively. "A beard."
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Jun 18, 2009 23:01:30 GMT -5
Spock wanted to protest that logic, on any world, was objectively the same. He suspected it was an issue on which he and Kirk differed. He wanted to engage in debate about it. It would surely be interesting. Again, that interest was a prediction no other debates with humans--few other beings at all--had ever elicited. But Spock wanted to discuss it.
He wanted to discuss that in no way could logic condone the brutality the captain had mentioned. That he could not be similar to that other Spock, because violence towards others without extreme necessity was against every logical dictate, and thus, everything he had ever stood for. In fact, aside from his interest in discussing this with Kirk, his primary response was abhorrence at the idea of in any way being compared to this other Spock. The abhorrence was even to some degree justified, as it misrepresented Spock and Vulcans and rationality in the extreme.
However, the captain's last comment caught Spock off guard. "This Spock can in no way bear any resemblance to myself," Spock found himself saying. "I would never resort to sporting an appearance so illogical as that which would include facial hair."
He found, for no reason he could immediately determine, that despite all his myriad of responses to what the captain had said, his primary one was the urge to make Jim smile. Again. This time at him.
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 19, 2009 0:37:37 GMT -5
Kirk made no effort to determine the cause of his reaction. He smiled, broadly, appreciating the fact that Mr. Spock would joke with him more than the joke itself. "It suited him," he said. "Gave him a sort of... gravitas."
His eyes were kind and alert as he watched Spock.
"I meant no disrespect in what I said," he clarified, recalling his own Mr. Spock's reaction. "It's true that you--any version of you, any version of Vulcan--seems incompatible with the 'values' of this empire. At the same time, Mr. Spock, I can posit a world in which survival was the logical alternative. Under extreme circumstances, the Vulcans in that universe may have adopted certain customs that to you seem barbaric, but to them seemed logical--under completely altered circumstances. That Spock seemed somewhat amenable to my request that he seek an alternative route for the empire. He was receptive to my overtures and, in many ways, much like the Spock I knew. Under the circumstances, you were by far the best of us."
His tone and expression contained no flattery, only conviction and respect. He knew, again from Spock, what his own barbaric counterpart had been like, and it might have shamed him but for the reality that his entire crew had been corrupt and evil. Spock had been the only one to exhibit any fellow feeling. And that, he thought, was significant.
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Jun 19, 2009 2:00:55 GMT -5
Spock felt a temporary success at having achieved his goal.
But the captain's next words brought Spock's other previous responses to the fore. "I am more able to posit a world in which a version of myself, and a version of--" again, that most slight of pauses--"Vulcan could have forsaken logic, than that we would profane the idea by equating it with mere survival. Animals survive; Vulcans ... comprehend. Although it is sometimes necessary to resort to violence to preserve one's self and others, that preservation is only necessary if it will serve to promote diversity, greater knowledge, and understanding. Violence can only be temporary. But you imply this empire had its beginnings before even the birth of this other Spock, and as such hardly temporary. Therefore this other Spock would have been altered from birth, to have accepted such a dominion."
The abhorrence had receded. Even if the response had been partially justified, it was partially irrational. It was obvious this other Spock was a completely different person, nothing like his elder counterpart, or the counterpart in this Kirk's universe, who could conceivably be him.
Spock picked up his king and began resetting the pieces on the chessboard. Hands were a Vulcan conduit of telepathy; if a Vulcan was agitated, which of course they so rarely were, hands often held the first clue. Of course, Spock's movements were as methodical and regular as always. He did not note his need to reset the pieces might be telling.
"So obviously I cannot perceive any disrespect aimed towards myself, as you were merely speaking of a wholly different person. This other Spock's willingness to listen to your entreaties only proves my point," Spock said, perfectly confident in his own reasoning. "It proves how completely he had abandoned logic. Once faced with your rationality, he could not deny it. He realized the objective truth: change is inevitable; waste, illogical. In that sense, he might have borne some resemblance to myself, but surely in no other."
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 19, 2009 10:13:54 GMT -5
Kirk watched Spock replaced the pieces and knew he would not press the issue. There was no need to prove any particular point here, especially when the man was struggling with thoughts that went beyond the theoretical. Not that Kirk would dream of suggesting such a thing. Spock could say he could not perceive any disrespect, but he was shaken just the same.
Of course, he held his own convictions. He wasn't particularly given to relativistic thinking, but for him the fact that the imperial Mr. Spock was a more flattering picture than any of the rest of them did say something about the man's essence. And it was that conviction which had saved them, his trust in a Spock he'd never known that had gotten them home.
"Point," he conceded. "I'd hardly wish to be compared to the raving madman who had taken my place." Though he could not, in all honesty, argue that he himself would have done better under the circumstances he'd seen. "I suppose it's very human of me to be gratified that even in that world, one might have counted us as friends. But I have no desire to return there, or see any of its denizens in my universe again. It does support the multiple universe theory, contrary to my experience with the Guardian. It would have been interesting to see if the Guardian could have been adjusted to show other universes. Or at least determine the mechanism by which it had access to the time stream it did."
But he'd halted any such examination. "Too dangerous," he'd said, but he knew that wasn't the whole of it and in truth he couldn't bring himself to condemn his emotional reaction too harshly.
"Did you wish to play again?"
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Jun 19, 2009 11:43:25 GMT -5
Now that Spock had made his point, he was able to more fully consider the captain's point of view, what he had been saying this whole time. And Spock was struck again with the importance of this friendship to Jim. It was important to Jim in Spock's own universe, in the universe of the elder Spock, in Jim's own universe, even in the twisted universe of the imperial Federation.
It was only logical to assume that it was important to him here, too.
Nyota Uhura was the only other person he could think of who seemed to place value on this idea of calling him a friend. He had thought she valued it because he was intelligent, capable, strong, matching her in many of their interests. He had considered the two of them potential suitable mates, and had allowed certain human intimacies as the human potential prelude to this potential mating. T'Pring had always been willful, if eminently logical.
He had had similar thoughts regarding Jim, not as a potential mate, but as a partner. They had qualities which appeared to complement each other; their partnership could benefit both of them and their work. Spock knew friendship was a human way of strengthening partnerships.
But the elder Spock had seemed to place a value higher than the potential benefits Spock could predict as the outcome of such a friendship. In addition, Jim was concerned with it in universes which had no bearing on his own. Even in a twisted universe, in which the qualities Spock thought were admirable in himself, the qualities which he assumed attracted Uhura, the qualities which had had assumed attracted Jim as beneficial to a mutual partnership, were non-existent.
Spock didn't see why Jim would continue to value friendship in such a twisted world. It seemed stubborn and human and highly illogical. But it made him feel . . . cared for. Spock did not require that feeling, confident in himself and his abilities. But still . . .
Spock looked a little lost again.
"It would have been interesting, however it appears not worth the risk," he said, in reply to Kirk moving onto the subject of the Guardian.
"I wish to play again in order to improve against you," he answered. "But it would be more beneficial for me to further contemplate your style before challenging you again. Also, I have no wish to impose on this establishment. It has been some time since we paid."
Spock had been monitoring their environment, but glanced around again at his own words. No one seemed particularly annoyed with their presence, but he still had no wish to be impolite.
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 19, 2009 12:26:18 GMT -5
Kirk wasn't exactly sure what he'd done to put that expression--slight as it was--on Spock's face. And not knowing, it was hard to tell if it was something he shouldn't have said, or something that he would think Spock needed to hear, anyway. He thought again about how this Spock didn't seem to share the relationship with the other Kirk that he and his Spock did, and how he would feel about being pushed together like that. But at the same time, he wasn't about to hide his respect, his admiration, and his friendship for the other Mr. Spock. And he felt little guilt about it spilling over into this new relationship. As yet, he'd seen no reason to believe this wasn't Spock. They weren't the same men, but Kirk had no difficulty bridging that discrepancy. He'd never confuse them, he thought, but there was room enough for all of them, as far as he was concerned.
"You're probably right," he said, looking around the cafe. The waitress happened to be looking at them both with some sort of speculation in her eyes, and Kirk wondered if she had been expecting a little more of his attention. She looked away quickly. "Let's go. And you'll have your period of contemplation, while we figure out what we're going to do next. I'm glad you agree with me about the Guardian. But I don't know if we'll find any cause so concrete, here. I have yet to, anyway."
He rose.
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Jun 19, 2009 12:51:54 GMT -5
Spock returned the chess set. The waitress had apparently not been inconvenienced by their continued presence here; instead she was looking at them as if she was figuring something out about them. Spock attributed it as he had her interest before to the captain's aesthetic appeal to humans. It made Spock desire to depart rather more quickly. It must be because it was illogical for the waitress not to desire their absence.
"You do not wish to continue our search for Lorien?" Spock said, as they left the cafe.
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 19, 2009 13:11:49 GMT -5
Kirk nodded at the waitress upon departing, just a friendly gesture, but returned his full attention to Spock as they hit the street. "I think it's a good first step," he said, "if only to study its relationship to this world, and why it might exist here when it's clear to me it didn't in any Earth history I'm aware of. But it's going to be something of a walk. You'll have plenty of time to contemplate and observe on the way."
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Jun 19, 2009 15:55:13 GMT -5
"The rate of this world's rotation, by my calculation, is exactly that of Earth. By this account, it is 4:37 in the afternoon. I need little sleep, but you need more. Furthermore it is traditionally more dangerous after nightfall. I recommend we seek accommodations along our way, should this 'something of a walk' extend longer than another five hours."
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 19, 2009 16:20:29 GMT -5
Kirk had noted the same thing about the length of days, though with less math. He was inclined to agree with Spock logically, but dismiss "traditionally more dangerous" as irrelevant. Still, he had a point.
"I might have enough money for that," he said. Lorien did seem to be not exactly in the same place when he came and went, so it may well take longer than five hours. "I'm certain there will be accommodation available if we need it. Your suggestion is sound."
They headed out, passing shops and apartment buildings and, occasionally, a sight familiar from history books. Most of Kirk's attention, however, was on Spock. He wasn't really thinking about anything, just turning over the oddity of it, silently comparing the Spocks he'd known but without judgment. Only one was his Spock, of course, but it was interesting to note what came from shared experience and what came from their intrinsic natures and how much Kirk could assume his regard was based on this man's own merits and qualities rather than his automatic associations.
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