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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 14, 2009 0:12:39 GMT -5
Kirk was gratified that Spock hadn't asked what he'd said. He didn't want to repeat it; he'd worried about it, a little, while he'd been in those caves and thinking about what was happening up on the ship. Even if he knew Mr. Spock would disavow any hurt feelings. This Spock had nice hands, he noticed. He'd noticed this before, about his Spock, in a sort of absent way that didn't attribute any importance to the observation. They were precise in their movements. They matched him.
He didn't stare. His eyes may have tracked them for a moment, but he was more interested in watching Spock's face.
"Thank you," he said. "I'm not certain I knew just how much I would come to respect Mr. Spock in the future, but I already respected him a great deal. Enough to rely upon him."
His sandwich was almost gone, and he felt full, and he had so many questions.
"How is he?" he asked suddenly. "I'm sorry to change the subject, but I can't help but think there's a very large chance that your older Mr. Spock is the one I know. And especially if that's the case, I want to know if he's..." Happy "...well."
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Spock
- Ingenious Pilot -
Apparently he's GQ?%\0\%
Posts: 142
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Post by Spock on Jun 14, 2009 9:50:45 GMT -5
Spock raised a brow. "My elder self was in perfect health, last I heard of him." He finished with the last slice of orange, and then neatly folded his hands. "He is outside his own time. Obviously, when he arrived he knew no one and possessed nothing. However, his intelligence and wisdom have enabled him to make the necessary connections to continue to live a productive life. With logic he has overcome the effects of his displacement. He now works to help rebuild Vulcan. He is an ambassador to the Federation, as he was in his own universe."
Spock wondered if that was enough information. There was of course no reason for this Kirk to need to know about that Spock, but they had already proven a unreasonable concern for each other. Spock had a suspicion that his answer did not address what the captain was really asking. He was trying, though. He did not want to thwart a man who obviously was invested--even if it was in an older version of himself.
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 14, 2009 10:51:30 GMT -5
The answer was what one might expect of a Vulcan, especially one who clearly did not understand the ties Kirk believed existed between himself and the other Mr. Spock. The ties that, in Kirk's view, existed between all possible values of himself and Spock regardless of how illogical and downright fanciful that was. But in Kirk's logic, they were, in essentials, complements of one another. As much as Kirk valued his own judgments and character, he knew that he would be weaker without the influence of Spock and, to a lesser degree, Bones. He liked to think that both men benefited in similar ways from what he brought, and he was utterly unshakable in his faith that they represented the best Starfleet had to offer--but only as a team.
It stood to reason, then, that even in an alternate universe, an alternate time, those essentials still pointed to a beneficial relationship between them. He didn't think it, or they, would necessarily be the same. And he was acutely aware of the lie the mirror universe made of all this. But he was more inclined to accept viewpoints like Edith's. He'd never seen the value in thinking negatively.
He wanted to ask if that other Spock was lonely. But he knew the question wouldn't make sense, and asked another that probably didn't either, but was equally pressing. "Do you like him, Mr. Spock? I know it's irrelevant, logically. And I know he's exhibited behavior you don't recognize as your own." His eyes widened minutely as a thought stuck him. "I assume other me is acquainted with him as well?"
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Spock
- Ingenious Pilot -
Apparently he's GQ?%\0\%
Posts: 142
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Post by Spock on Jun 14, 2009 17:43:46 GMT -5
Spock's brow rose again. Although there had not been logical purpose behind the captain's other question regarding Spock's other self, Spock had understood the reason for it. This question, however, was slightly more mystifying.
"I do not possess an emotional attachment to my elder self," he answered. "But while I do not see the point in 'liking' him, self-respect and respect of others is important. I do respect my counterpart's greater experience, and ease in adapting himself to his current situation.
Spock paused. "He has given me cause to temper that respect in his treatment of your younger self, whom he has indeed met." Spock knew his response was heightened because this elder Spock was supposed to be him. But he wasn't. The other Spock's actions should not affect his own self respect. It would not be logical.
Spock studied Kirk's reaction as he spoke. "He lied to your counterpart. Until I understand his rationale, I cannot condone such--" an almost imperceptible hesitation--"an illogical action."
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 14, 2009 19:20:43 GMT -5
Kirk knew his own Mr. Spock "liked" him, for some Vulcan/human hybrid of "like," but he supposed he wasn't surprised at this answer. It would be weird, to be faced with someone who was supposed to be yourself under different circumstances, and with far more experience. He would be like a stranger who knew far too much. He wondered how he'd react to someone like that; surely it was a different experience from the robot double, or his own personal Hyde. Not evil, for one.
"He didn't offer one?" Kirk said, for though the answer seemed obvious it was possible Mr. Spock literally didn't understand the one given. "That is, Mr. Spock is always telling me Vulcans cannot lie." Which, of course, was itself a lie, but it indicated the importance their culture placed on the truth. It was almost a mania. Though there seemed to be plenty of truths Vulcans were fairly adept at avoiding. "If he did, it means he had a good reason. Was it malicious? I can't even imagine that, Mr. Spock. It's untenable. What about the other me? What does he say?"
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Spock
- Ingenious Pilot -
Apparently he's GQ?%\0\%
Posts: 142
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Post by Spock on Jun 14, 2009 20:38:46 GMT -5
"Vulcans cannot deny reality; therefore to misrepresent facts goes against their very nature. My elder self implied to your young counterpart that should I be made aware of my own counterpart's existence, paradoxes problematic to space-time could occur. It was not an overt deception, but still a disguise. I have not had the opportunity to discuss this with your younger self; to my knowledge he is still working under false assumptions. Nor would I want to reveal the falsity while I still don't fully comprehend my elder self's motives."
Spock thought about Kirk's utter confidence that Spock's elder self had good reason to lie. That confidence seemed connected to the very reason his elder self had lied. They both placed such value on this relationship, but Spock did not understand how either other version of himself could have so compromised his logic so as to allow it to become so important in the case of the elder Spock, or how such compromised logic could engender such trust in this Kirk.
It was not his own logic that was compromised. Spock should be confident in that regard. And yet the feeling of the unsolved puzzle remained, and Spock felt confused, and uncomfortable.
He had not meant to trap himself in this conversation such that the reasons for his own counterpart's lie need be revealed.
"As I understand it," Spock said, 8.7% more slowly than normal, "my elder self wished that your younger self not reveal his existence so that I, at least, might interact with your younger self on my own terms, not those of my elder self. Is the flaw in this logic apparent to you?"
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 15, 2009 8:58:35 GMT -5
"Only in the sense that he did, obviously, reveal himself to you, thus thwarting the intent his original... disguise," Kirk pointed out. Interesting. So his Spock had thought that such a lie might aid the relationship of the younger counterparts. Or more precisely, that this Mr. Spock's knowledge of their prior relationship--in another time--might endanger the formation of a relationship between them that was by no means certain.
That seemed unavoidably sentimental. It was possible, Kirk thought, for his Spock to rationalize this as being essential to his own development--and that certainly gave him a bit of a glow deep in his gut. But was there really a logical reason to manipulate alternate reality for the sake of... friendship?
Kirk realized he was smiling.
He wondered how the younger him felt about the old Spock. He wondered if there was anything essential about himself that would make him respond, but that was stupid, because it wasn't as if he'd walked onto the bridge of the Enterprise and into epic friendship with his first officer. It had taken time. He thought he understood his Spock's motives, though. He wasn't sure he could have stood by thinking all that was lost. But he wasn't sure he could argue that his actions had been, by this Mr. Spock's logic, logical.
"It does seem that, whatever his motives, Mr. Spock was attempting to influence you as little as possible," he said. "Clearly he considers certain aspects of his own development essential to the man he is now, and no doubt he's worked it out quite logically to conclude that, if left alone, the similarities in both of our counterparts to our own natures would lead to a similar relationship. But he couldn't leave it alone, could he? Not considering the damage that had already been done to the timestream. His deception was, I assume, intended to undo as much of that interference as possible."
But Kirk couldn't pretend that his own acceptance of this "logic" was not colored by emotion. Nor did he want to. It was strange, how one could be so touched by someone hundreds of years in the future through the remarks of his younger, alternative self several years in an alternate past.
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Spock
- Ingenious Pilot -
Apparently he's GQ?%\0\%
Posts: 142
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Post by Spock on Jun 15, 2009 9:55:04 GMT -5
"Only in the sense that he did, obviously, reveal himself to you, thus thwarting the intent his original... disguise," Kirk pointed out. Interesting. So his Spock had thought that such a lie might aid the relationship of the younger counterparts. Or more precisely, that this Mr. Spock's knowledge of their prior relationship--in another time--might endanger the formation of a relationship between them that was by no means certain. That seemed unavoidably sentimental. It was possible, Kirk thought, for his Spock to rationalize this as being essential to his own development--and that certainly gave him a bit of a glow deep in his gut. But was there really a logical reason to manipulate alternate reality for the sake of... friendship? Kirk realized he was smiling. He wondered how the younger him felt about the old Spock. He wondered if there was anything essential about himself that would make him respond, but that was stupid, because it wasn't as if he'd walked onto the bridge of the Enterprise and into epic friendship with his first officer. It had taken time. He thought he understood his Spock's motives, though. He wasn't sure he could have stood by thinking all that was lost. But he wasn't sure he could argue that his actions had been, by this Mr. Spock's logic, logical. "It does seem that, whatever his motives, Mr. Spock was attempting to influence you as little as possible," he said. "Clearly he considers certain aspects of his own development essential to the man he is now, and no doubt he's worked it out quite logically to conclude that, if left alone, the similarities in both of our counterparts to our own natures would lead to a similar relationship. But he couldn't leave it alone, could he? Not considering the damage that had already been done to the timestream. His deception was, I assume, intended to undo as much of that interference as possible." But Kirk couldn't pretend that his own acceptance of this "logic" was not colored by emotion. Nor did he want to. It was strange, how one could be so touched by someone hundreds of years in the future through the remarks of his younger, alternative self several years in an alternate past. Emotions did not normally affect Vulcans. The emotions were there, but through meditation and lifetime practice, the mind transcended such reactions. Only in extreme cases should a Vulcan require himself to actively suppress emotion. This was not an extreme case, but Spock had always had more difficulty with this than he should. He had to actively think about it to kill the small surge of frustration. Worst of all there was no reason this Kirk's justification of the other Spock should affect him at all. This Kirk had nothing to do with it. And yet Spock had wanted him to understand. Spock knew he was being as irrational as this Kirk and his own counterpart. His lips visibly tightened. "He could not leave it alone," Spock said, after only the slightest pause to gather his thoughts. "Indeed. It was a time of crisis, captain; my elder self needed to impart information to your younger self, thereby 'interfering', as you say. To lessen the impact of that interference as much as possible, he should have been honest with all parties. "Instead, he chose to manipulate your younger self. He gave your younger self knowledge of me which he then used to manipulate me, in turn. Whatever his faults, I do not believe your younger self would have acted towards me in the way he did unless he believed there was no other way. My elder self's deception dictated those actions. Thus he engineered interactions between your younger self and me which were imbalanced and more twisted than they would have been had than had he chosen to make his presence known to me. "Lastly, had he truly believed this one-sidedness so important to my 'development'" --Spock's tone did not alter, but the word was nevertheless sarcastic--"he should not, as you pointed out, have revealed himself to me. Now I know my counterpart exists, but your counterpart does not know I know. The imbalance is heightened, when the revelation of my elder counterpart to both of us should have dissipated the deception. Yet my elder counterpart chose to reveal himself to me on the sly, without again facing your young self. "I would never behave in this way to you, captain," Spock said, for some reason wanting very much for this Kirk to believe that, "nor would I to your younger self."
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 15, 2009 10:14:57 GMT -5
Kirk realized that he'd underestimated to what degree this Spock was affected by all this. Emotionally. He should have seen it before, but frankly his own emotions--valued as they were--had gotten in the way. He could only see the trust, the warmth, the naturalness of his own Spock's behavior as seen through the eyes of a cherished friend. Heightened, of course, by the knowledge that this cherished friend had been so driven by their relationship that far in the future. It didn't knock down any of his own beliefs about himself or his life or Mr. Spock, but rather confirmed them beyond his wildest imagination.
So he'd been blind to how this must affect a man who had struggled his whole young life with his emotions, who had yet to accept some of them as natural and rational (if not entirely logical). He'd half-forgotten all the times his own Mr. Spock's emotions had come to the surface, and the trauma that had engendered.
And it was more than likely that this Spock would resent, in any case, the notion that he was supposed to behave in any particular fashion outside their commander-captain relationship towards the younger Kirk. "Whatever his faults," indeed.
"I think I understand," he said quietly, watching Spock. "He betrayed your ideals, and your trust, and, you feel, the trust owed me by the relationship--whatever me, and whatever relationship--it is obvious exists between myself and the other Spock. And he's left you without resolving that issue, and with the lingering knowledge that there's something he wants for you that you can't possibly understand because he has experiences and knowledge that you do not. And put pressure on both you and my counterpart, heightened by that imbalance. I understand that, Mr. Spock.
"But I want to ask you a question. You say the other Mr. Spock manipulated the other me in order to encourage him to manipulate you in a way he would not have otherwise. I tend to agree with that, in the abstract sense that I can't imagine consciously manipulating you without cause I consider excellent. My question is this: As egregious as this manipulation of you might have been, was it, in retrospect, necessary?"
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Spock
- Ingenious Pilot -
Apparently he's GQ?%\0\%
Posts: 142
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Post by Spock on Jun 15, 2009 14:58:49 GMT -5
Spock moved his head in the slight negative. "There were many factors at stake. Had my elder self made his presence known, different factors would have been put into play, such that I cannot with full accuracy predict the course of my own or anyone else's actions. However, at this point, with the present facts, I believe that had my elder self made his presence known, the actions your younger self took would not have been necessary."
For some reason, it was important Kirk understand this as well. "However, any egregious behavior on the part of your younger self was perfectly logical, working under the assumptions he was. His manipulation of me was entirely necessary from his point of view. However, it was not from the point of view of my counterpart, and that is where I find fault, Captain. Not in your younger self." Well, that was not perfectly true, since he still believed the young Kirk had faults all over. Spock quickly added, "In this instance."
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 15, 2009 15:41:41 GMT -5
Kirk began to wonder what he'd done--the other him--to require such strenuous disavowal of this Spock's disapproval. In this instance.
This Spock wasn't friendly with the other Kirk.
He'd wondered before, but it seemed clear now. At least as clear as most issues like this were with Spock. So whatever it was that the older Spock was trying to do, it hadn't worked. Yet.
"It strikes me," he said slowly, "that if the other Spock meant to draw you closer together through this deception, he chose an odd way to do it. One that hasn't netted the results you describe him as desiring. Which suggests, to me, that we don't have all the facts. The Spock I know would not behave in so illogical a fashion; neither would you. Isn't it more reasonable to assume that this older Spock must have a logical basis for his actions that we don't know than to suppose he's abandoned those principles entirely?"
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Spock
- Ingenious Pilot -
Apparently he's GQ?%\0\%
Posts: 142
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Post by Spock on Jun 15, 2009 19:01:00 GMT -5
Spock gave a tight nod. "I allow for the possibility that further facts may emerge which prove my own conclusions false. My current judgment is a working theory only." Spock's eyes were no longer focused directly on Kirk's face, but a point somewhere to the left. "My elder self has not seen fit to supply me with these corroborating facts."
((lemme know if I need to give you more.))
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 15, 2009 20:44:01 GMT -5
Kirk nodded. He felt he could see both sides of this conflict with some accuracy--maybe it was being quite literally in the middle, even if it didn't directly involve him. He was older than this Spock, younger than this Spock's version of his Spock, and he felt the depth of that relationship along with the frustration of a not-too-distant youth when thwarted by authority.
He'd realized, at one point, that he'd grown comfortable being that authority without even realizing it, though he hoped that didn't mean he was frivolous or authoritarian in his command.
"I see," he said. "For now, you're unsatisfied; and that strains the relationship between you and... yourself." And, he thought, between this Spock and the other Kirk. "Though frankly, it's even money whether I'd like myself, so confronted. You say the other me isn't aware of the deception. I wonder what he thinks of... the older Mr. Spock."
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Spock
- Ingenious Pilot -
Apparently he's GQ?%\0\%
Posts: 142
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Post by Spock on Jun 15, 2009 23:18:20 GMT -5
Spock thought the captain had a preoccupation with whether people liked each other. Spock didn't see why it mattered.
He did understand it was a human trait to be so preoccupied, but none of these people's likes or dislikes would affect this Kirk.
"I do not know," Spock said. "He trusted him. But my elder self helped your younger self to effect his own ends. His trust was perhaps expedient."
The waitress came to take away their dishes. Spock inquired after their bill. He had studied enough ancient cultures and enough of Earth to know this was how it was done; he was interested to try it himself.
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Post by James T. Kirk on Jun 15, 2009 23:27:51 GMT -5
Kirk, who had of course paid bills before in various times and primitive cultures, let Spock do it. He seemed interested in doing so, or he'd not have taken the initiative, and if they were going to be stranded here--and despite his faith in Spock, Kirk thought it likely--he might as well learn.
When he could continue the conversation, he did so.
"Forgive me," he said. "I realize this can have no bearing on our situation, or indeed my life. It's not every day, however, that one gets the opportunity to peak into another vision of what one's life might have been." Every other week, perhaps. "That you and I are acquainted in that other life fascinates me despite the uselessness of the knowledge. You see, Mr. Spock, I suppose I think there's some merit in examining the differences for clues about my own life, my own Mr. Spock. Even if we're different people, we're made of the same stuff, to a point. Where we diverge informs me a little more about my own nature."
He shrugged easily.
"But we don't need to talk about it any further; it's mere idle curiosity on my part. I'll content myself with observing that for my part, I'm happy the other Kirk has you serving with him."
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