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Post by Der Tod on Apr 29, 2008 9:15:26 GMT -5
How is Erik turning visible again? I think I missed that part of the plot.
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Post by Erik on Apr 29, 2008 9:22:39 GMT -5
He's going to save Pina from the fire. He's magic!
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Post by Christian Daaé on Apr 29, 2008 9:25:41 GMT -5
Hell yes Erik is magic. ;D
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Post by Micaela on Apr 29, 2008 12:08:45 GMT -5
The older I get, the less romantic I find Rebecca and the more confused I am by Mrs. DeW's acceptance of her husband's story. I don't care what Rebecca did or how she goaded him. He had other choices. Not saying it's not a good story. I just have increasingly less sympathy for Maxim. Still, Erik's excited about becoming visible again. Well with the original 2nd Mrs de Winter (oxymoron), I'm not really sure why she accepts the story. I actually don't like her much at all. I'd have expected someone so afraid to quail at the thought of it, but she depends on him so heavily that I think subconsciously she knows she can't leave him now. Mrs. de Winter is always defined by someone else; whether her father, Mrs. van Hopper, or her husband, she's always dependent on another person and if she leaves Maxim then, in a way, she doesn't exist. Mine just loves him to much to even consider leaving at this point. She recognizes that it was totally wrong to kill Rebecca but is selfish enough to be glad she's dead and that Maxim never loved her, no matter how she ended up dead. I think you should write that. Oh, and then there's Pina lying about burning down half the house after the inquest... And, um, so not half the house. There are two other larger and perfectly lovely wings, thanks.
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Post by Erik on Apr 29, 2008 12:20:10 GMT -5
Well with the original 2nd Mrs de Winter (oxymoron), I'm not really sure why she accepts the story. I actually don't like her much at all. I'd have expected someone so afraid to quail at the thought of it, but she depends on him so heavily that I think subconsciously she knows she can't leave him now. Mrs. de Winter is always defined by someone else; whether her father, Mrs. van Hopper, or her husband, she's always dependent on another person and if she leaves Maxim than, in a way, she doesn't exist. Mine just loves him to much to even consider leaving at this point. She recognizes that it was totally wrong to kill Rebecca but is selfish enough to be glad she's dead and that Maxim never loved her, no matter how she ended up dead. Oh, agreed. She's really malleable, and once Maxim tells her everything she's willing to go along with anything at all. Which doesn't speak of love, to me. Not when their whole relationship has been characterized by this patronizing, controlling dynamic. The Dance/Fox version made this totally explicit to me by showing me a completely (to my mind) unattractive and uninteresting relationship that is actually revitalized and sexualized through her discovering his secret. What is she thinking, if anything? Still, Emilia Fox is damn cute.
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Post by Micaela on Apr 29, 2008 12:24:22 GMT -5
The whole relationship is entirely centered around Maxim, which is why it's odd that she's the narrator. To an outside reader it's obvious that he probably *has* married her because he can't stand to be alone and because she's so little like Rebecca. Therefore, until his secret comes out, he's in charge of everything. In a way it's almost Oedipal... or Electral, considering she's the female and he's the male. Either way she's more like his daughter (they even say he's old enough to be er father) than another half of a marriage with an equal say in things.
Probably why I threw sue!Me at Maxim. Because Mrs. de Winter's malleable behavior bothers me on an unconscious level (I can't understand acting the way she acts, frankly). Otherwise known as OCD and an irresistible urge to *fix* things.
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Post by Erik on Apr 29, 2008 12:28:20 GMT -5
Exactly. Like I said, good story--not good romance! Not for me, anyway, though it worked better when I was younger. That might have been my fierce crush on Jeremy Brett (from the 70's version, where Mrs. DeWinter was played by Emilia Fox's mother, Joanna David. Good times.).
I have my doubts about Rebecca's evilness, too. Not in the world of the novel--obviously, she's bad. But in a wider, theoretical sense, what does it mean that the qualities Rebecca exhibits are coded as irretrievably bad? Does that make sense?
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Post by Micaela on Apr 29, 2008 12:31:19 GMT -5
Oh it definitely makes sense. She's probably the most human of the characters and, strangely enough, she never makes a physical entrance in the novel itself. She's the one who would thrive in the real world, and a lot of readers don't like to admit it and therefore classify her as 'bad' and therefore justify Maxim's actions, just like the second Mrs. de Winter.
In my opinion, which isn't necessarily well-founded.
The bad companion books that are circulating are far more interesting when they involve Rebecca than when they involve what Maxim and Mrs. de Winter do after Manderley burns down.
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Post by Sarah on Apr 29, 2008 13:49:12 GMT -5
Weird. I always thought of the novel as being classified "Drama/Gothic/Dark". Never once ever considered "romance" as part of it.
Anywho, re: the plot--
I had an idea for Erik/Christian. I was thinking that Christian is going to find out about Erik/Julian from another character, and (understandably) he has a brain asplode and then that's the catalyst for him leaving Erik. There could be a big misunderstanding where Erik thinks Christian is leaving because the fire burned him and his Opera Ghost is no longer pretty.
What do you think?
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Post by Irene on Apr 29, 2008 13:58:12 GMT -5
I totally agree with Kris on this, and that's the viewpoint Vimes will be taking. He doesn't care how much of a bitch she was or how hot and brooding Maxim is- he could have divorced her, and killed her instead.
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Post by Aimée-Cosette on Apr 29, 2008 14:04:21 GMT -5
... er, Vimes is actually showing up? The whole inquest thing isn't actually supposed to serve justice...
If it did serve justice, that would defeat the whole point of all of Micaela and Maxim's plot. The verdict HAS to be suicide, otherwise Maxim gets hanged.
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Post by Eleanor on Apr 29, 2008 14:06:47 GMT -5
No, it's going to be suicide, because Maxim has connections. It'll just piss Vimes off, that's all.
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Post by Aimée-Cosette on Apr 29, 2008 14:08:33 GMT -5
... but the whole thing in the book is that it's not because he has connections, but because by chance they find the doctor and manage to have someone gullible judging them.
If he had connections it would make him another bitchy rich boy getting off.
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Post by Eleanor on Apr 29, 2008 14:21:27 GMT -5
Vimes will just be at the inquest and know he did it but be without proof.
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Post by Erik on Apr 29, 2008 14:33:03 GMT -5
What bothers me about the Rebecca=evil thing is that what she mostly exhibits is sexual freedom and self-interest. Yes, there's the lying to her husband and then turning on him, but in essence it's a story about the "libertine" woman being replaced by the sexually compliant. Weird. I always thought of the novel as being classified "Drama/Gothic/Dark". Never once ever considered "romance" as part of it. I think that comes not necessarily from the book but from my introduction to it; guided by women who already found it romantic, or liked Maxim, or whatever. I had an idea for Erik/Christian. I was thinking that Christian is going to find out about Erik/Julian from another character, and (understandably) he has a brain asplode and then that's the catalyst for him leaving Erik. There could be a big misunderstanding where Erik thinks Christian is leaving because the fire burned him and his Opera Ghost is no longer pretty. What do you think? I think that's fab, and works perfectly with what Erik needs to go through here. His fears will all be validated, one way or another.
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